Gainax wants to make poor Shinji suffer again and again with each re-building, re-birth, re-death and re-re-birth haha xD

I wish they'd just do a complete remake instead of this. I don't flow too well with anime movies because usually there's too much too say in that small amount of screen time they can fit in.

Did you know that Hideaki Anno himself had depression before directing the original series? You can see that he used a lot of his own personal experience in making Evangelion. This is why Shinji is probably my favorite anime protagonist: he didn't cop out. He knew that the viewers would want to punch Shinji in the face for being the epitome of emo, and quite possibly hate the entire series as a result; but rising up from depression is loads harder than most people simply imagine and pulled through his character until the very end.

BTW, have you seen Evangelion ReDeath? It is the most funny god damn fan parody ever and I'm not exaggerating.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPtFxvtfH9I
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJbPIF7nGrQ&mode=related&search=
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYmg2WEzHQM&mode=related&search=

Yeah, I knew Anno had depression and used Shinji as his canvas, so to speak.

I agree that most people really don't understand how emotionally draining depression could be. I think most of them think "Can't you just snap out of it?" Well, duh! If it's that easy then people wouldn't have it for a long period in the first place. It's a long process to recovery and usually required some kind of trigger from the sufferer.

Thanks for that link. They are quite funny. Have you seen "Kodomo no Evangelion"? It's Kodomo no Omocha opening replaced by Evangelion character. It's too hilarious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nsFsgG0ejc

I'm not sure if it's funny if you haven't seen "Kodomo no Omocha" (Child's Toy).

I'm happy that new people will get to know this anime, maybe it's because the new ones aren't that awesome anymore, and the ones that are supposely awesome bored me!

I'm happy I'll be able to watch this again!

I liked many aspects of the manga better than the anime, especially Kaworu, Misato/Kaji, and the development on some secondary characters.

About characters, I never get what they liked about Rei-who IMO has more development in the manga as well, somehow! I had an initial liking to Asuka for reasons unknown, but as the series progress I got to like Shinji the most, probably. Misato got on my right side as well.

I hope Kaworu gets more moments this time, there is this certain scene in the manga that I really really hope they include! And, if they could show a bit of what Asuka and Shinji will be doing in the end, it would be nice as well, though the original ending has that something an open ending always has! Maybe the ending won't be the same though,

Wow, thank you for this post. You expressed pretty much everything that I ever felt about Evangelion, but in better words. Thank you!

While you're in Japan, I was going to ask you to also check out the Kara no Kyoukai movie that's coming out but it looks like you won't be there long enough.

It would be awesome if you could blog about it when the raws come rolling in.

http://stage6.divx.com/Anime-PV/video/1281674/Kara-no-Kyoukai---PV

Perhaps you'd be interested in the novel though. It's written by the same guy who wrote the visual novels Tsukihime and Fate Stay Night. I heard his writing is sometimes hard to figure out though.

The problem with depression is not only is as you claim "hard to snap out of," but also because it is very hard to define. Medical Science is still grasping with what depression really is. However your average person will usually just quantify your "depression" as a perpetual Monday in which the depressed is for all intents as purposes, useless. I don't think that there is a need for people to understand an individual's depression. If Medical Science is still debating on what it is and how to best cure it then what good is it for Johnny Next Door to dedicate his life to bringing a depressed person out of it? If this is what is required I dare say the depressed person is being rather selfish. To be honest the best attitude that a concerned person can adopt is a help me, help you stance. If this depressed person is drowning so to speak what good does it do if the would be rescuer drowns in the process?

The problem I have in dealing with depressed or emo people, as I can't really tell the difference (I doubt most people can), is that is all seems so trivial. Debate all you want about the meaning of your own existence if you must, but that is a question I doubt many people would bother to ask or even dwell upon. People in Africa suffer and die daily; the continent is littered with strife here and there. Yet not all who live through it lose hope, in fact many still persist. Now if some poor guy who has gone through a bloody coup, civil strife, plague, famine, and violent conflict can still hope for the better; how is it that some one else who lives in a stable country with a decent standard of living can lose hope and feel forlorn over something relatively insignificant for an extended period?

The problem I have is that when emo or depressed people tell me that they suffer from boredom and unhappiness it comes off as if they are entitled to excitement, and happiness. I don't think that people are entitled to happiness because it is a state of mind that cannot be simply given. I think that people should be free to pursue happiness, but if they refuse to pursue why should they be entitled to happiness? The very idea that the world can hate any one person is rather arrogant, the world does not hate anyone, the world does not care. How can this one person be so special that the whole world has an axe to grind against them? We live in an uncaring world, it has always been this way. The world stops for no one. The desire by an individual for it to stop for a personal tragedy is selfish.

As for boring, life is never boring so long as humanity is still milling about. Humans have an unlimited capacity for making things interesting. In fact every day someone figures out a new and creative way to screw up.

As emotionally draining goes so are a lot of things, overseas deployments, raising kids, work, school, and life. Just because people don't act like these characters does not by default mean that they have lived a charmed life. Humans are adaptable creatures that can survive and endure tragedies. Just because people lived in the USSR does not mean that every last one of them was emo or depressed. I'd wager that they were too busy staying out of trouble to complain, as complaining was in all probability classified as spreading anti-communist propaganda. The fact that there were jokes about communism during those days tells me that people can rise above such a horrid situation and still go about their business.

Granted that it is not easy to simply snap out of it, I see little reason for anyone to give life and limb to such a wretched soul. I commend people for getting out of "depression" or the Monday blues and finding some degree of happiness. However I would never commend a person who despite being given the tools to pursue a degree of happiness, refuses to do so for what ever reason. It is not blatantly obvious what depression is or its difference from simply having a bad day. Therefore if it is hard to identify, how is it that it is blatantly obvious that depressed people simply can't snap out of it? Is it really because they can't or is it that they refuse to snap out of it? Just because something is hard does not mean that it is not worth doing. So what if a person says he or she feels unmotivated, how can I tell without being a medical professional if they are not simply being lazy? How can I care about someone who does not care about themselves?

Just because humans are emotional does not give any one of us license to always act on emotion. I think that many people have felt like killing some one out of frustration at one point or another. However we do not excuse people who actually carry out a killing.

While I commend Garten and others like him who are getting over depression I do not think that it is correct to demand understanding or sympathy when depression itself is so hard to quantify. A depressed person has a right to receive help, but that does not entitle them to pity.

I dislike Shinji more for his selfish attitude than his personal insecurities. In what was a life and death struggle for all of humanity he chooses to mull over his personal problems rather than focusing on the struggle at hand. Everyone feels insecure about something, but that does not excuse any of us from not doing our jobs and fulfilling our obligations whatever those may be. All Shinji had to do was simply try to do his job and keeping his personal issues separate from the task at hand, yet he could not even do that. In fact In my opinion he hardly even tried. In a way he is like Achillies though Shinji is now where near as strong. When Agamemnon slighted him he went back to his tent to cry about losing the woman he was in all probability raping. While Achillies cried thousands died for the sake of his own ego. I cannot sympathize with Shinji's position as his problems seem so trivial when I have met people who have overcome much greater personal issues and tragedies.

-A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill

Crusader: agreed :O what an enlightening rant~

If you inspect closely, you'll notice that more than half of the clip are "stills." Beside the Angel battles, which are probably going to be about 20% of the movie, more than half are going to be still shots of faces, landscapes, figures, etc.

Crusader -

I think depressed people are (more than) fully aware of their own shortcomings (selfishness, uselessness, triviality) with respect to the world. They know that there are lots of people who are worse off than they are, leading crappier lives and managing to overcome life's obstacles anyway.

Depression means that one is, as you say, bored and unhappy in spite of doing something/nothing. There is no happiness to pursue. They are not defiantly turning down happiness in their reach, it just seems like they'll never be happy again no matter what they do. Even if they've done it.

Also, about the world-hating thing? It's not like they think they're special, they are just aware that other people cannot understand why they're acting so mopey and useless and therefore, hate them. The hate comes from a condensed version of every "Why can't you..." from every person they know who is sick of their whinging.

I don't think one snaps out of depression, it's like snapping out of being a vacuum.

I agree with you that pity is wasted on the depressed, not because I think they can do better, but because when someone is depressed it takes more than just blind pity or logical reason to reach the place they've retreated to.

Shinji - I didn't think that he was selfish in the beginning. He did fight when the lives of other people were at stake, even when it physically and mentally hurt him to do so. But then their clamouring got louder and more complicated, and that's what I think caused him to retreat into insensibility near the end of the series, too depressed to even kill himself.

Basically imagine you're Shinji (hard, I know) and you are well aware that you're scum and you cannot even keep your own shit together and all you want is for everything to just shut up and stop. At the same time you're being asked to decide the fate of the world when everyone's making you dance to their agenda and sometimes you really hate them?

Okaaay I think I'm projecting a little too much. But I seriously think you either get what I'm saying, in which case you'd like Shinji, or you think he's lame and needs a good swift kick on the behind before being replaced by someone else.

Believe me, I think most depressed people have heard your arguments before. Sometimes they've probably made the same arguments to themselves. But you know, so what?

I wonder how much longer they will milk this series. I hope it turns out good. I do agree that Eva is a human tragedy rather than a drama an it relfects a lof of human personality including myslef sometimes

Crusader, you're trying to be understanding, but you're still falling towards the "omg emo ppl are retarded" camp. You can't just say: "Oh look, there are people who 'suffer' more than you and their not depressed!" I don't think most cases of depression (in the western world) physical suffering or severe emotional trauma.

>>>The problem I have is that when emo or depressed people tell me that they suffer from boredom and unhappiness

How did you know that they were depressed? I don't think a depressed person would readily admit to it.

As for the pursuit of happiness, I think a better analogy for depression is that the depressed person simply can't do it, not because he or she doesn't want to. I really don't believe in the "there's always a choice if the person isn't insane" argument. (See Milgram Experiments and Stanford Prison Experiment)

>>>It is not blatantly obvious what depression is or its difference from simply having a bad day.

Actually, there's a severe difference between depression and a bad day. Just because we don't understand it completely does not mean that it's not real or is purely made up by attention seeking people.

>>>I see little reason for anyone to give life and limb to such a wretched soul.

Me too. Depressed people annoy me as much as the next guy, but what if it happened to your wife? Your mom? Your son/daugher? Your imouto?!?!?

>>>All Shinji had to do was simply try to do his job and keeping his personal issues separate from the task at hand, yet he could not even do that.

See my first sentence.

First, let's keep in mind that piloting Evangelion is not a normal skill that can be learnt and perfected through practices, it is not done through memorization or rationalization. Instead, each time the pilot has to embrace him/herself, face their own demons, be it doubt or guilt when they are connected to the Eva at the soul, whether or not the the Eva will move does not depend on what they do, but what they are. It is obviously impossible for Shinji to just "snap out of it" since that would mean turning his back to his personal feelings and emotions and would no doubt render Unit 01 immobile. (like what happened to poor Asuka and Unit 02)

As for depression itself, Crusader is right in that it is hard to define, he's also right in that it is the most unsightly and disgusting thing even if the victim in question is your close friends or families, in fact, you can't understand it unless YOU are the victim. You cannot understand other people's depression even if you can read their minds, if you do that you will get depressing thoughts and that's ok because everyone has depressing thoughts, but not everyone has depression.

That's because the point about depression is not what's there but rather what's not there. There are no happy thoughts to counter the depressing ones, therefore your brain focus on the depressing ones, like, any artificial happiness you conjure up is quickly killed, like:

"how about I go for a walk? Stretch my legs and get some fresh air. Get the blood going, style of things"
"But it never worked before, so what's the point."

And unfortunately, the brain focuses on the second sentence, which is perfectly rational based on the person's experience from the past. However, Normal minds wouldn't pursue the logic that far since they are filled with other thoughts that distract them from the reasoning, like "i can go to that park, then I can pop in the super store." in which case the brain wouldn't have time to come up with thoughts like "I never like that park, I hated that store." even if they are true.

In other words, depression is a state of mind where when you order your body to do something which might be positive, the mind concentrates on the logical outcome of the action (it never worked) and is thus unable to imagine the whole process (while i'm at it). Without the ability to rehearse the action (by jumping to the assumed conclusion), the suggestions you come up with, as positive as they are, would lack a sense of reality, and would never be put into action.

Garten quotes the Evangelion image of drowning in the ocean and unable to pull oneself up, even though you know that is the only way to save yourself. It could also be seen as living in a bubble, positive actions, recovery and the happiness afterwards is only a few inches away, you can't touch it. Without a solid piece of (happy)memory to act upon, or the reassurance of others, one can only ever 'know' the action that can serve as salvation but can never feel it, so they can't act on them.

Form another point of view, depression is a perfectly viable intellectual pursuit (albeit a depressing one^.^'), many philosophers have gone through depressions in their lives because in depression, like in philosophical thinking, people tend to try to give meaning to each of their actions, and failure to do so result in an absence of actions. And lets face it, a few depressed soul cant even hope to solve the great mystery of life (providing there is one, of course).

And that's the problem, if anyone sat down and throught about their life seriously, there is a high chance they would find it to be a whole load of meaningless activities patched together, especially the highly intelligent and open minded ones (yep, so open minded that their brain falls right through, it falls so fast that the normal "of course" or "obviously" can't stop it)

So in some (rare)cases the reluctance to snap out of depression is the realization that it means, well, distancing yourself from the 'truth'. I don't mean the truth of the universe or anything, just the odd 'what I do is meaningless' or 'getting close to people could easily become a painful experience' or 'people lie, espicially about themselves', once you've realised these facts they are extremely hard or even impossible to accept as just facts of life. It's no use saying "everyone deals with it" since although everyone know these facts, not all of them understand it fully therefore they don't really "deal with it"

However, if one is unable to follow these thoughts through (i.e. a bit dumb), snapping out of depression should be a walk in the park. In fact, serious idiots will never, ever get depressions in the first place. The morons are the lucky ones, well, sort of.

@Squit

As for being in the same situation that Shinji is in, I say that my current situation is not that dissimilar. Its just that I am one of many while Shinji was merely acting out a rehash of a Samurai epic. I admit that as a human I am pretty much a scum bag I am no saint. My college education is starting to fall apart due to being called up, I am not graduating on time. My parents are trying to put me on track for marriage something I could not give any less of a damn about. My teenage cousins have lost themselves to their own self serving attitudes and habits. My path towards advancement has been derailed yet again. I would very much like it if FOX news would cease to exist, the Democrats and Republicans to just shut up, and for my commander and chief to just be blunt. Still this current US foreign policy debate is getting out of hand and has for me become an annoyance over the political aspect of the current conflict while handicapping the military aspect of it.

There are days I simply loathe the petty nature of my leadership, both civilian and military at times. I have numerous stories about building towers of Babel, and digging ditches for no reason. There are days I don't feel that I can honestly say that I like my bosses. I don't have to like any of them, but I still have to respect them and I do respect them with a yes sir. You could say the fate of the world is in my hands as well since this recent conflict will change the balance of power in an already unstable and volatile region. Yet every day I wake up and go to work, unless I am on leave. The shit storm I am staring into daily is real, Shinji however likes to tend to his own baggage rather than the conflict that may cost his life or the lives of others. I am sure I am dancing to some one's agenda, but hey its the result of civilian control over a military. Shinji's situation is not unique, the way he dealt with it was appalling form the point of view from a lowly trooper who does not have the luxury of an uber weapon.

I think that I have much to be resentful about, but I don't dwell upon the situation. I can take care of myself, however I face a problem that is bigger than any one person. Solving that problem is right now of greater concern.

@BeowulfLee
The thing that I have learned about this pitiful mass that is called humanity is that the human spirit can overcome many obstacles. I have met people who have lost their families in on fell swoop to a goddamn drunk driver yet they continue to live. I understand that depression can happen, officers who send their men off knowing full well that they will all die can be depressed. The few survivors of an ambush can come back depressed. But in most cases the depression I can relate to in my mind involves the loss of life. Without that I find it hard to relate to "one day I just stopped being happy." "My parents hate my woe is me" does not seem like a good reason to me either.

The human spirit resides within us all it can overcome, it does overcome. The way I see it the only person that can kill one's human spirit is oneself. Even then it is never truly dead merely forgotten and shunned. I think that there is always a choice, quiting is a choice even if it is not much of one to begin with. I can choose to desert. I can choose to be insubordinate, I can choose to mutiny. I may feel justified in doing so, but there was always a choice involved.

I tend to discount the Stanford Prison experiment because the selection process for the inmates were mostly middle class and not representative of a larger society. Secondly it was a field experiment that would be difficult if not impossible to replicate. Humans can be cruel it is hard to step away from a position of authority, yet people can still decline. The issue is not that there was no choice, but rather that the guards liked to humiliate the inmates in my opinion. The conclusions drawn were based on the notion that humans are naturally good. However it is my belief that without rules or consequences humans are self centered and would kill if they knew that they could get away with it. In the Milgram experiment was it really that these people had no choice or was it that the chose to push responsibility onto someone else? According to the rules of war, simply following orders is not a good enough excuse.

While there is a major difference between a bad day and depression. It is nevertheless hard to distinguish. The very nature of depression is so vague and broad that it is hard to tell what it is. People rarely admit to being depressed but going by what Medical Science lists as symptoms it is still hard to tell. I cannot tell if people are emo or depressed by going by what they tell me it could be depression.

As for happening to those of near and dear to us I plan on paring down your list to my parents and a brother. Yes it would be callous of me to let them stew however I can only do as much for them as my HMO allows anything else means that even I can only sacrifice so much. I can give them a helping hand, but I cannot save them if they have no desire to be saved. I have one cousin who has lost himself in his own depression, I gave him the tools and incentives to pull himself out. He refused, and got angry at me for simply asking that he simply do his homework not for my sake but for his own. So now he has gone back to the the PRC, he can return to the US if he so chooses. However I am not going to use my own dime in some futile attempt to bring him back, the required security procedures alone would take more than a year. If he chooses to be a coward and die daily I cannot help him.

I hope he finds what he is looking for with his mother's side of the family, but as for me I am done. We encouraged him, brought him to counseling, and even indulged his old hobbies, yet all we got was resentment. We asked him what he wanted to do; he chose to flee so we obliged him we were running out of ideas and options. Perhaps it was callous, perhaps it was not even right. However, by what right could he claim to tax his family in the US emotionally and financially and repay us with nothing but contempt and hatred? We would have been fine with everything so long as he tried. By what right could he simply physically threaten members of his own family? A depressed or emo person is not just another victim he or she is also an inflicter of grief upon their family and friends.

My primary problem with this issue is that is is so vague and broad that is hard to understand yet, at the same time an outsider is asked to understand or even sympathize when clearly it is not easy to do so if at all. I admit the very idea that a human being can give up all hope and persist merely to complain is abhorrent to me. There are so many worthy causes that a person can dedicate themselves to and to take up none but spend one's days in morass of self pity is to me alien and base. To say that there is nothing that brings a person a sense of joy or contentment is in my opinion false. There are so many things that can be done that not even a single life time can be spent doing it all.

I prefer an objective and pragmatic approach to life rather than one involving emotional gratification. For me being content is enough, I can live with the fact that my moments of unadulterated joy exist for but a fleeting moment. The attitude of "I can't do anything" is in my mind an illusion.

"I dislike Shinji more for his selfish attitude than his personal insecurities. In what was a life and death struggle for all of humanity he chooses to mull over his personal problems rather than focusing on the struggle at hand. Everyone feels insecure about something, but that does not excuse any of us from not doing our jobs and fulfilling our obligations whatever those may be."

I agree. Crusader explains much of I've thought before. However I do disagree on a few points.

One: Since I haven't suffered depression, I won't judge them. I may have my opinions and the such; stopping yourself from having any opinion on anything is actually really really hard, despite how slack i perceive unbased opinions to be.

Two: Shinji was really not neglecting his duty or anything: just as he (and others who suffer depression) don't deserve any special pity/sympathy etc, from the world, he had no obligation to save the world. He was well within his rights to sit in the corner and wallop in his self-pity.

OK. onto less divisive issues.

I liked Asuka and Misato a lot more than Shinji. Asuka because despite her childhood trauma, which is in my opinion worse (although not by much) than Shinji's, she turned this into motivation to become awesome. While not the most healthy option, it is no less unhealthy than Shinji's self pity.

Misato, because her story was a romantic tragedy (with Kaji) and I'm a sucker for those kind of storylines. Not only that, but she trusts Kaji against all her reason and logic, because she used to love him. Although cliche, this kind of "love overcoming all" is..... nevertheless very appealing.

For the same reason, Kaji is also awesome.

Also, thanks Garten writing up a piece on Evangelion - I had thought that Evangelion was a human-relationship tragedy too, but was never sure so it's nice to see that someone agrees.

[Note: I'm probably a bit of a misandric, because I'm a guy myself, and have always thought that guys should still follow chivalry and all that kind of stuff. That's probably a big part of why I don't like Shinji, more than anything else. More than that though, Shinji was selfishly (with reason, but nevertheless still selfishly) preoccupied with his own troubles when Asuka was also suffering, but with a lot less fanfare and less sympathy/self-pity. For a guy to be in a position to have been able to help someone like Asuka, but instead do nothing but whine, was unforgivable. Again, this is somewhat my misandricism speaking.]

@ 何

Re:
"So in some (rare)cases the reluctance to snap out of depression is the realization that it means, well, distancing yourself from the 'truth'. I don't mean the truth of the universe or anything, just the odd 'what I do is meaningless' or 'getting close to people could easily become a painful experience' or 'people lie, espicially about themselves', once you've realised these facts they are extremely hard or even impossible to accept as just facts of life. It's no use saying "everyone deals with it" since although everyone know these facts, not all of them understand it fully therefore they don't really "deal with it"

However, if one is unable to follow these thoughts through (i.e. a bit dumb), snapping out of depression should be a walk in the park. In fact, serious idiots will never, ever get depressions in the first place. The morons are the lucky ones, well, sort of."

That is so illogical, yet on a subject that's in itself so complicated, that I feel I have to correct some things.

To the last sentence; yes, ignorance is bliss. However, that doesn't mean that all the non-moronic peoples are all afflicted with depression or the such.

(Just before I go on any more, please know that I don't imply that those who suffer depression are somehow less or not as good or whatever, it's just that some reasons for explaining depression don't make sense either.)

I'll get onto defining depression later. First; the statement that following such thoughts such as "what I do is meaningless" etc leads to depression is counterproductive. True, such thoughts do help in perpetuating depression in people, but having (and yes, fully understanding the magnitude of) these thoughts do not automatically lead to depression. And even if it does, there are different ways to cope/deal with depression.

It is a fact that with 6.3 trillion people in the world, the actions of any normal person is meaningless or at best only meaningful to those immediately around him (and who are, in their own sense, also meaningless to the greater scheme of things). I've had these thoughts for a while now (ever since year6/12yrs old, and yes, before you point this out, this is a kind of showing off, etc). Because I've had these for so long however, my views on these have changed quite a lot. In the beginning, I took these facts to mean that living is pointless. Then it turned into some kind of pseudo-spiritualism, whereby our existence in this life is a test for the next, or some equally undisprovable theory. However later on I realised that even were any of these theories correct, they WOULD NOT BE RELEVANT to this life. Eventually I settled on living for happiness' sake (whether it be material happiness, narcissistic happiness, having a completely guilt-free conscience, or any of dozens of ways a person can be 'happy'). This proved to be too vacuous and egocentric however: not only was it the zenith of selfishness (and worse, a reasonable, and indeed encouraged form of selfishness) but it was also directionless in that it suggested nothing but to work for your own ends; thus it was impossible to use as a rationale for living from both a pragmatic, as well as a idealistic sense. Some other things happened, and I finally settled on living to make a difference, to leave behind a legacy, and to help others. (basically I had come a full circle and realised, consciously, what I believe most people grasp instinctively). So now, while studying and nursing my plans for world domination (not a wholly fictional dream either, just a hopelessly impractical and lofty goal) I try to help others where I can, try to make others laugh, cheer up those who are sad, etc - what a normal person would do.

It's a little late to say "but I digress" at this point, but nevertheless I shall return to the topic. Or try.

People deal with these thoughts how they will, depending on their state of mind, their neurological make up, their past life experiences, everything that makes up who they are. Whether they manage to come out unfazed, or get stuck, is more a testament to the differences in people's personalities without which this world would be quite bland. It is also a chemical imbalance as much as a psychological condition, and while I disagree with the principle of using drugs as a cure to depression (it is, at BEST a band-aid solution), I think that antidepressants are good to keep someone functioning while they delve through these thoughts/feelings and hopefully find a way out. Far too often however, people see these drugs as the end, as opposed to as a means to an end, and such dependence on these chemicals I deplore and am vehemently opposed to. What is the point of being able to think and reason, if you're going to live life avoiding all the hard questions????

However, again I am forced to concede that the mantra of "to each their own" applies here as to anywhere else where a person does not affect anyone but themselves. People have different methods of coping, and it is no-one's right to judge which is right and which is wrong.

I don't like generalisations, whether they are that depressed people are all useless because they somehow can't "deal with it" or that depression is caused by being able to think deeply on life's mysteries. Having opinions is good, but being too committed to a single way of thinking, and being singularly opposed to any other way of thinking, despite how unreasonable, illogical, or plain stupid they may be, is the main reason behind conflict (other than the obvious geopolitical reasons).

Anyways, I think I have exhausted way more than the allocated 2c, so I shall stop here. And maybe chime in later if anyone wants to argue =D

Okay, I think this issue is rapidly becoming a chorus of how everyone chooses to live their life in spite of its ugliness. But Crusader, I never meant to imply what Shinji did was right and good. What I did want to do was explain why it wasn't as simple a matter of shaking themselves out of self-pity. There is a deeper dimension to it, beyond making choices that are morally upright. Depression deals with emotions, which themselves interfere with people's mental ability to take action or make decisions that seem perfectly natural or "right".

In spite of my living on the opposite side of the world, doing completely opposite things and having opposite beliefs, I respect what you're doing with your life and how you keep on at it in spite of what has happened to you, but I think you have to understand that not everyone can just "suck it up and deal because it's worse for others". What you rationally /know/ and what you /feel/ as a result of that knowledge are not the same thing. Yes, they are related to each other. e.g. people who know of loved ones who died would tend to be unhappier in general than those who have them safe. But not everyone takes it the same way. It sounds callous, but you cannot deny that in the event of the death of a child, some parents will take it harder, and take longer to recover, than others. In comparing the situation of depressed people to nondepressed ones and saying "So what do they have to complain about?" you discount lots of things, like childhood traumas and genetic/social predispositions and past experiences.

Speaking of genetic/social predispositions, I don't understand why you would discount the Stanford prison experiment because they were mainly middle class and not therefore representative, because the environment (or microsociety) created in the experiment precisely eliminated any class-based differences that would have confounded the experiment in the first place.

I think if depressed people choose to reject your help, there is nothing you can do for them and you shouldn't get pissed at yourself or at them for it. As a person who suffers from bouts of depression, I personally consider that it is not anyone's job or emotional burden but my own to get over it. In the same vein, I think it's offensive to me if anyone feels like they're the boss of me and feel upset or be angry when I fail to "snap out of it" as quickly as I /could/ (I emphasise the word could, because I know I am the only one empowered with that ability) It's like getting angry because when a man on crutches fails to run as quickly as other people.

The point is, I understand on philosophical level why living a pragmatic life is better than sinking into a morass of ultimately thinking everything is futile, but as I said, what you know and what you feel are not the same.

really want to watch rebuild of evangelion
i like this anime when i was in middle school
for me i like rei than asuka

@Garten
that kodomo no evangelion was so hilarious
especially shinji father "unbelievable"

Watching that video gave me chills up my back. I can't wait to see the movie!!!

I pretty much agree with squit on what being in depression can be, how it affects people despite knowing how futile it is, and why one cannot discard events that ocurred during the entire past life of the affected.
However, I'd like to add how dealing with depression, is also a matter of intelligence, and from here on, to someone who cares little for any X matter, to another it may be the end of one's world, let's say for example failing at school, it depends on the person who happens. But for the cases where the losses are invaluable, the point from where one see it, is what makes the difference, and taking it from the pragmatic side is more intelligent than being drawn by it.
So, speaking of Shinji, I like much the character, because first, he represents much of what every human feels at least once in life and doesn't cover it with anything, not that he does something about it anyway, but I always go for the premise the more similar a character is to any human, the more enjoyable he/she is. And in this case, yes, he may be or very lazy to overcome his depression, or too weak, or a scum bag who can't do anything, but who can really? (Well, this question is metaphorical, as it depends on one's selfsteem and facts), but anyway in the end he takes the Eva and shows how Human he is, and finally surpassed his situation -at least for now-.
But if during the whole series he does nothing but being down and/or if he even thinks of suicide, to not feel sorry for him, or being moved by him, is maybe sth a bit hypocrit, because who can decide what is a big problem and what not?, and more than that, haven't everyone ever been worried or depressed about someting stupid?, and worse, how much it taked to be solved?...
Of course, I say "stupid" because once we're out of a depression it can be seen like that, but from the very inside of it the colour is much darker.
Anyway, talking about the experiments, the standford one is a bit about suriving, not that one has any choice, but while we still feel there's hope, one can't be down forever and so there's still a way to go on, one can't consider that is for depression, because the bad is not the subject but the others.
And for the milgram experiment, it results very interesting to think if there is really no choice, or if the thing is one is NOT really thinking, but only acting. In these sense I found it very elogiable Crusader says in War rules, being ordered doesn't justify our acts, in the end we are beings who Think.
Going on other matters, the graphics look just great, I can't wait to watch this so detailed and polished version!

oh wow! Utada Hikaru sings that theme song?

Yes she does!

Today, August 31st, is BlogDay!!

Nothing about Pen Pen?

For shame. D:

Saw the movie.

Almost completely same as Episode 01 - 06 -except they introduce Lilith, and at the end, Kaworu.

CGI looks pretty much fine.

Alright movie. Not a required viewing experience.

@Ritsuka

RE: "And, if they could show a bit of what Asuka and Shinji will be doing in the end, it would be nice as well, though the original ending has that something an open ending always has! Maybe the ending won't be the same though, "

WHAT Happened To the Manga ending ??
plz tell, :D !!!

Excellent post, sums up my thoughts exactly on the franchise.

All this philosophical debate is honestly amazing. But no matter how you approach it, Shinji was being a selfish jerk who has absolutely no sense of responsibility.

He spends his time asking the question as to why he of all people has to pilot Eva. Instead of just doing it for the sake of 6 billion people around the world, he has to think about his own needs and the ways he might get hurt from piloting Eva.

Ever heard of self sacrifice?

People around you may have betrayed you every single day. And you may no longer want to live out life.

...but 6 billion other people in the world still want to live out life. Shinji, have you seen that child who was enjoying his first steps in the world? Or that couple who just got married last week and are looking forward

Ever heard of optimism and hope? The world may be crumbling around you. The planet may be dying. But that's no reason to end it.

People in Africa get raped/beaten/robbed/killed everyday. But do they lose hope and kill themselves and forget the people around them? No.

Women get raped daily. But do they abandon their children? No. They feel shame and question why it happens to them, but they don't forget their duties as people? No.

People are born into the world with AIDS, or cancer or other deformities. But do they lose hope? No.

Even if you a born normal and through life, you lose one eye, one leg, one arm and one ear, it doesn't mean that life is over.

Don't think of past possibilities. It won't get you anywhere. You are already the world hero. And even if you just killed one angel, you will be forever remembered in history for the first person to kill an angel. The people you save will forever be indebted to you. Don't think of things that could've happened.

Their love may start out as love for a hero, but as you get to know them, then they'll start to love you as a person.

I can go on for pages and pages about how selfish Shinji was and how if I met a person as whiny as him in real life, I would absolutely not have any qualms about slapping him in the face.

No matter how you approach it, Shinji was, is and will forever be wrong for forsaking the needs of others and thinking about himself.

Comments/criticism are welcomed. But be reasonable (ie: state grounds and evidence for criticism). Don't be biased and prejudiced.

"...but 6 billion other people in the world still want to live out life."

And why should Shinji cares about them when they don't even care about him? Yes, it is selfish but seriously, so is the world, who probably won't even care if he lives or dies. Sure, he might be remembered as a hero but do people seriously care about him and his problem on a personal basis? I don't think Shinji cares about being recognized as a hero. He just wants someone who'd like him for himself.

"But no matter how you approach it, Shinji was being a selfish jerk who has absolutely no sense of responsibility."

In order to love others, one must love himself. Shinji can't even love himself, how do you expect him to love other people? Yes, he's being selfish but no one around him taught him to love himself so that he in return, could love others and think about their needs instead of always having to watch over his own back....because no one else cares to do it.

wait...what is that song called? thats utada right? I havent heard that one before.

does anyone had upload the movie on the net? like a torrent?
thanks

"He spends his time asking the question as to why he of all people has to pilot Eva. Instead of just doing it for the sake of 6 billion people around the world, he has to think about his own needs and the ways he might get hurt from piloting Eva."

Actually that was what he did in the early part of the series. He did it because he can't bare seeing an injured Rei piloting. He did it because people count on him. He did it because father told him so. But he find that also in doing so he will also be hurting other people, like Toji, his sister and Kaworu. If he really cared ONLY about only himself getting hurt, he wouldn't even step into the Eva in the first place. What is more of Shinji's problem is indecisiveness. He just doesn't know what to do, although you can hardly blame him. Is it more right to seriously injure (or kill, in the manga ) Toji, a friend of yours, to pilot a giant robot that you are not even sure of its true purpose, fighting an equally unknown foe? I would honestly like to see anyone of you here make that decision someday and see what you will do. Can you make a moral judgment on what you do when you don't even know what you are doing. And of course by the end of Evangelion, he is in so much fear, confusion and self-loathing to the point that he just doesn't want to do anything anymore, as he thinks that all choices just lead to bad things.

"Ever heard of self sacrifice?"

Have you done any lately? Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone. Bravado is easy when it is only typing on a screen. And how do you not know that those people you mentioned who suffered greatly had not go through phases, however short, where they would think like Shinji, filled with self-doubts and fears and do not want to do anything. From people I know, they all had the same doubts and fears at some point in time. This is why Evangelion chose to be a super-robot-coming-of-age story. It is when a boy "grew out" of and overcome his difficulties, except that the difficulties is not just bounded to adolescence, but rather as part of everyone's psyche. Shinji, as all characters in Evangelion are not supposed to be a complete person, they are all parts of a person, more specifically, the writer(s) of the story.

And just for arugment sake. In the end of evangelion, the human race did not die, they were all just returned to their original form, that SEELE believe to be a higher form of co-existence and unity so that all those suffering you mentioned would not exist anymore. So in one sense, that is one way to "save" the world, and stopping it would be as much as a crime as performing it. Of course, they made the point that it is a "false" salvation, but that is another topic.

kYAAAAA

see, this is why the evangelions series -- although people say that it's just something the milks people of their money -- is an awesome work of art. it makes people argue about the topic at hand, about the theme of the story. although the super robots and the high-tech gadgets make it out of this world, the focus of the story is so realistic that it gets people going.

hn, it's been fun reading everybody's thoughts! and it's been nice watching evangelion again

Hey, guess what? Shinji is 14! What the hell do you expect him to do? He's a child. That's the whole point. You expect a child to deal with the end of the world and severe clinical suicidal depression all at the same time? Some of you are going to make wonderful parents with all that empathy you're tossing around.

P.S. Clinical depression and mood disorders are often genetic (i.e. runs in the family). You cannot "snap out of it". That's why it is depression. If you can snap out of it, it is a bad mood. If you can't snap out, it is depression. It is a mental illness. Some forms of depression (like bipolar) can take years to moderate (not "cure"). I think some people in this thread don't actually know what the difference is between clinical depression and a bad mood.

P.P.S. I'm a year late to the conversation, haha.

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