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ローゼンメイデン 
February 8, 2007 | 
136 Comments
Well, this turns out to be a surprisingly effective episode. I'm not too keen on some of the set up scenes but they are necessary in order to facilitate the plot progression. At any rate, I am glad the writers decide to go towards this direction this early in the story. It would have been annoying if they keep postponing it until the last few episodes of the season. I am also surprised to see a previous subplot reappear so quickly after the writers made an attempt to put it aside not too long ago. With this and the above plot progression, I think they want to make Lelouch's life as miserable as possible. C.C was right when she said taking the power would have made Lelouch lonely. I, however, am more interested to see how awkward the student council meeting would be should there be one anytime soon.
The episode begins with Lelouch modelling for his classmate while pondering about Suzaku. He recalls how disturbed Suzaku was when he tried to confirm if Suzaku really killed his own father. Upon seeing Suzaku's messed up state, Lelouch told Suzaku that this is not just his secret. He asked Suzaku if Suzaku remembers Kirihara. Apparently Kirihara once said that the death of Prime Minister for Japan, Kururugi Genbu, was necessary to suppress the amount of extreme resistance groups. Because of this, Lelouch believes that this 'cover story' was necessary not only for the sake of Japan but also for Britannia. Suzaku calmed down considerably after Lelouch reminded him of this and thanked his friend. In the present time, Lelouch is being scolded by Rivalz because he shifted while posing for his class. He demands that he lifts his glance a little bit and when he is not satisfied, he comes forward and 'fix' Lelouch's face, forcing the guy to grin.
After seeing the result, the entire class protest the change since it's completely different from their drawing. As it turns out the reason Lelouch poses for his classmate is because this is an art week. On the Britannian side, they decide to use the day to hold inauguration ceremony of Clovis' commemoration art museum. Right now Euphemia has been invited to come to the museum so she can choose a grand prize winner from few selected candidates. When Euphemia is about to choose a painting featuring a house near a river, her guide advises her against it since the painter has 1/4 of Eleven blood. Euphemia tries to retort by saying that if that's the case the painting would not have been exhibited right from the start. The advisor, however, claims that it's needed for the tea ceremony and directs Euphemia's attention to another painting. This time it features Euphemia's father, the Emperor and one which was drawn by Duke Nicolai's son.
Meanwhile, Ougi opens his lunchbox and smiles upon seeing Tako Wiener included by Villetta as part of his lunch. Before he can consume said lunch, however, his colleague lets him know that there are visitors from Kyouto. They inform Ougi that they need the Black Knights' help to rescue Toudou, who has been captured by Britannia. Zero immediately grants the request because Black Knights are the ally of justice. After Zero ends his conversation, C.C apologises for the blunder with the Chinese Federation. Lelouch tells her not to worry and instead focuses on two 'chess pieces' that they have and another possible one, referring to Suzaku. At the same time, Cornelia has decided that Toudou's execution is death by shooting. Before she leaves on a mission, she asks Euphemia to select a Knight from a book. While watching Nanaly playing with Suzaku, Lelouch realises that there is a possibility that he won't be able to stay by Nanaly's side.
In the case of emergency, such as the Mao incident, he needs someone who can protect her. Before Lelouch can asks Suzaku to be this person, Cecile comes to tell Suzaku that he has a job from Lloyd. Lelouch has no choice but to tell Suzaku that he has something important to tell him after Suzaku gets back. After Suzaku left, Lelouch asks Nanaly what she thinks of Suzaku. She tells Lelouch that she likes Suzaku but the one that she likes the most is her brother. At the same time, Shirley was dressing herself when she drops her hairpin. While trying to reach for the object, she finds a piece of crumpled paper lodged in the crevice of two tables. Meanwhile, at a press conference inside the art museum, a reporter inquires Euphemia about the museum's decision to exclude Eleven contractor during the construction of the building. When Euphemia stutters to answer the question, Dalton tells the reporter that the issue is under investigation.
Another reporter asks Euphemia about the person she will choose as a Knight. When Euphemia can't answer this either, the advisor has no choice but to tell the reporters that from now on, the questions will be restricted to things that are related to the art museum. Meanwhile, the Black Knights are busy preparing Guren Nishiki for the upcoming mission when a woman's voice orders them to treat the frame with a lot more care than their current attempt. When the guys bark back asking the woman who she is, she tells them that she's the 'mother' of that frame, Laksharta. When Zero comes to greet her, Laksharta tells him that she's heard many things about him. In return Zero tells her that the same can be said about her, where news about her medical cybernetics work can be read on the net. Laksharta tells Zero that she hates talking about old times and besides, she's here to bring them a souvenir: plugsuits for all pilots of the frames.
Karen who wears one wonders if the suits really increases the link between her and the frame. Laksharta, however, tells her that the suit actually increases the survival probability of its user. Inside the prison, Toudou is informed by one of the guards that his executioner has been changed to Kururugi Suzaku. The guard then mocks Toudou by saying that he must be glad that an acquintance gets to do the job. Meanwhile, Suzaku is disturbed by the knowledge that he'd have to be the one who executes Toudou. A flashback reveals that Toudou used to be his martial teacher when he was still living at the Kururugi Shrine. Suzaku's thoughts, however, comes to an end when there's a sudden explosion in the nearby area. As it turns out, Toudou's four loyal followers have attacked the area in their new Knightmare frame. Inside the prison, the guard decides to let Toudou has his final word but it seems Toudou doesn't have any regret for sacrificing his life.
All of a sudden Zero's voice can be heard declaring that in that case, he'd take Toudou's life. Guren Nishiki then crushes the prison's wall, killing the guard instantly. Zero then addresses Toudou by calling his full name Toudou Kyoushirou, telling him that during the war that happened 7 years ago, he was the sole man who defeated Britannia. Upon hearing this, Toudou understands that Zero is referring to the 'miracle of Itsukushima' so he wonders if Zero is expecting the same miracle from him. Zero argues that the incident was not a miracle but rather a real victory based on information gathering so he wants Toudou on his side. Toudou, however, doesn't care anymore about war since General Katase has passed away. On the other hand, Zero thinks Toudou has to take responsibility for the 'miracle' that he created. He explains how lately the resistance movement within Area 11 has been intense and markedly different from other areas.
He believes that Japan still has remaining power left when the country surrendered. However, the country is unable see the continuation of that dream known as the Itsukushima miracle. When Toudou wonders if that is his mistake, Zero confirms this. He thinks people are still holding onto the illusion of a miracle and this is why drugs such as refrain spreads. Because of this, he asks Toudou to struggle until his time of death. Toudou wonders what if Japanese people already accepts their defeat. Zero thinks that it's important for Japanese people to accept their defeat but he personally has his own dream which he would turn into reality. Toudou smiles upon hearing this. Meanwhile, Euphemia is still in the art museum, about to declare one of the painting as the winner. Euphemia is clearly torned about this and unable to make a decision. Back inside the prison, the fight between the Black Knights versus Britannia forces continues.
The now free Toudou decides to change frame and tells his men that he'd help Zero. With Toudou on his side, Zero thinks that his objectives are complete. All that's left is to find someone to take care of Nanaly. His happiness, however, is interrupted when Lancelot launch an attack on his frame. Thankfully for Zero, Karen manages to block the attack using Guren Nishiki. Back inside the art museum, Euphemia still can't decide which painting she'd like to choose. She, however, is spared from making any kind of decision because the reporters have got wind of the fight that is going on inside the prison area. Before long the fight is already aired inside the museum via television. At the same time, Lancelot finds itself fighting against Toudou loyal men, who are now being instructed by Zero on how to proceed. As it turns out, Zero has studied the way Lancelot moves in the past and intends on using the data to defeat the frame.
Thanks to Zero's guidance, Toudou's men manage to corner Suzaku, allowing Toudou to stab the cockpit area from behind. Toudou slices the cockpit open and reveals its pilot as none other than Suzaku. Toudou, Lelouch and Karen immediately recognise the guy and are shocked to say the least. Lelouch is especially disturbed with this revelation because it means that all of these times he's been fighting against Suzaku. Inside the museum, the reporter are surprised to know that the pilot of Lancelot is none other than the Eleven who was accused of killing Clovis. In the battlefield, Suzaku finds out that his frame can still move so he ends up on a one to one battle with Toudou. Toudou decides to reveal himself to his former student, shocking Suzaku who can't believe that Toudou is involved in this. In response Toudou challanges Suzaku to execute him as planned. While this happens, Lelouch is still upset to know that Suzaku is Lancelot's pilot.
He wonders why Suzaku is here when he's supposed to be by Nanaly's side. At the same time, Toudou challanges Suzaku, asking the boy if he's been reduced into a coward who's content with his status quo. In return Suzaku tells Toudou that defying the current society is meaningless especially when the society has the power which is accepted and can change things. Realising that Suzaku has made up his mind, Toudou tells him to follow his own way but to give it all. While Zero is confused, Toudou's men decides to join the fight but Suzaku manages to disarm them with projectile weapon. Zero eventually ask them to pull back since they've achieved their aim. Because of this, the group unleashes gas attack and flees before Britannia's enforcement can land on the ground. In the aftermath, Euphemia announces to the reporter that she has selected her knight: Suzaku. The episode ends with Zero laughing at his current predicament.
Impression:
I actually feel sorry for Suzaku in the first half of this episode. I think he had a tough life as a kid. However, it's hard not to get annoyed with him when he starts to mouth off his annoying philosophy about not defying the current power. Plus, he had the guts to act like Toudou has committed some horrible crime when the later appears as one of the attackers. What did Suzaku expect? That Toudou would just sit still and accepts his execution? I think the most annoying part of Suzaku is that how little he actually knows about the reality. He has no idea how torned apart his friends were when they found out that Lancelot pilot was Suzaku. In fact, Lelouch was so disturbed that he could barely made any kind of strategy. He also has no idea how Britannia press actually sees him. Despite this, he continues to fight his fellow countrymen all in the name of people who don't care if he lives or dies. Point in case: Cornelia orders him to execute his own people.
While it's true that this can be taken to Cornelia wanting to test Suzaku's loyalty, I think the least that she could do after the guy saved her life countless time is to spare him from committing such action. It's one thing to send the guy in an armour to fight another faceless frame pilot. It's quite another to send him to kill an acquintance. Anyway, enough about the guy. I think the next student council meeting would be fun to watch in that trainwreck sense of the word. Lelouch and Karen will be shifty while Suzaku will be oblivious. Millay will celebrate the fact that she's engaged to someone she barely knows while Rivalz lament his lack of luck with ladies. Last but not least Nina has fun with tables and chairs while Shirley starts to become suspicious of Lelouch. Another thing that amused me in this episode is how stupidly racist Britannians can be. They won't even allow someone with 1/4 Eleven blood to win a painting competition.
Preview
On next week's episode: Prepare yourself for episode 17.5.
"models for his classmates while pondering about Suzaku"
ahaha they're not even trying now ~_~''
screen 2= scary smile
LOL at the hot torrid romance!!! : )
i really think lelouch is intended to be the most miserable character in this series.. poor him. just prepared to get some bad ending ( maybe :P? ) for lelouch.
Poor Lelouch. He's clearly heartbroken that the love of his life is now revealed as his no.1 enemy (and straight - but he doesn't know this yet). XD
Why the hell do they have to make another recap episode, especially at this point?
How are we supposed to be able to wait two weeks for episode 18? ;_;
Why is there so many recap episodes in this anime? The plot's not that complicated is it? o_0
Why is it that Lelouch emulates Yagami Light when he delivers his evil, cackling laughter?
Suzaku and Euphemia's relationship has become public knowledge?
Nina's going to be pissed. Or maybe try to take advantage of the situation somehow.
Suzaku and Euphemia's relationship has become public knowledge?
Depends on what you mean by 'relationship'. If it's him being chosen by her to become bodyguard then yes. But apart from that, they don't have a 'relationship'. Yet.
poor to lelouch he was so shocked to see suzaku is a lancelot pilot
as i expected euphie will choose suzkau is her bodyguard
i hope euphie just love one-side to suzaku
"She's great in bed too you know"
Awesome rollover text but...
T_T Curse you Ougi!! First you suspect Villetta of being a spy and now you're reaping the benefits?
how does Villeta a PURE Brittania know how to make a bento box?
Has anyone else read this? This is the upcoming spoilers for the series:
I hate Suzaku he's a total ignorant either that or keeps himself in denial (which is much MUCH worse)
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I'm going to start a thread it wil be called the "Anti-Suzaku comunity" I'l be dammed if the series ends up bad for Lelouch and good for the little weeping-brat.
on another note Poor Lelouch now he knows he's fighting against his best friend.... who cares! don't deviate from your path! C.C. you have to do something to stop Lelouch b4 he too becomes a crazy maniac b/c of disillusion! you already had your rat-lab (you know the stupid guy whose name I do not remember and who died the previous episode!)
oh well I hope Lelouch gets over this soon I want him to kill Suzaku (but most likely it won't happen *sighs*) over all this was a great episode!
>> how does Villeta a PURE Brittania know how to make a bento box?
She's been asimilated by those Elevens!!
In other note, I'm sad that Villetta losing her memory is just a way for the writer to keep focus away from her for the next couple of episodes.
"I think the most annoying part of Suzaku is that how little he actually knows about the reality."
And, uh, how exactly would you suggest he go about learning about the reality? Steal Mao's geass? Because that's the only way that's coming to mind for him to get direct insight on how other people react to his being unmasked. It's not as though he knows Lelouch is Zero or that Kallen is in the red mech.
Just as I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Suzaku last episode and especially the first part of this ep, he sitll ruins it all with his self-righteous attitude there. I am so tired of seeing him as Mr. Justice pilot of Lancelot every single episode.*sigh*
@Quibi
Apparently Zero will try to make Suzaku his comrade... "I want you to become my comrade." - ep 18.
And, uh, how exactly would you suggest he go about learning about the reality?
By using logical thinking and normal investigation skill? For example, doesn't he ever wonder why Mao knows about his past? Before Suzaku can know what his enemy feels, he first must find out who they are but doesn't even attempt to do this.
But my biggest problem with the character is how oblivious he is to the circumstances around him. It's like he never wonder who are the people behind Black Knights. Why did Black Knights appear in the first place? One of the key in uncovering terorrist network has always to find the people behind it and their motivation. If his intention is to end terrorism as he always proclaim, then it's in his best interest to find out some information about them.
Lastly, he needs to ditch his belief that everyone will side with him. Why does he look so disappointed with Toudou joining the resistance? If he even bothers to think about it, why would not Toudou wants to join the resistance after everything that Britannia has put him through? He seems to think that everyone will just follow his way of thinking, which is extremely naive.
Not having seen the ep yet, I can't be certain, but:
By using logical thinking and normal investigation skill? For example, doesn't he ever wonder why Mao knows about his past?
It took even Lelouch some time to figure out Mao's power, and Lelouch has experience with Geass. Frankly, from a purely normal perspective, it's crazy to think that someone can actually read minds. Yes, Mao dug up some secrets, but I don't think that was Suzaku's primary concern at the time, and it's very easy to rationalize it later. "Maybe someone else knew, like Kirihara, and told Mao, and further speculation was the result of amateur psychoanalysis."
One of the key in uncovering terorrist network has always to find the people behind it and their motivation. If his intention is to end terrorism as he always proclaim, then it's in his best interest to find out some information about them.
Isn't that placing an unreasonable amount of expectation on him? This single teenage boy will be able to uncover more than all the resources of the Brittanian army could? Besides, he has a pretty good idea of the Black Knight's motivation: to defeat Brittania.
Lastly, he needs to ditch his belief that everyone will side with him. Why does he look so disappointed with Toudou joining the resistance?
Just a guess, but maybe because he sees someone he respects preparing to prolong fighting, creating more casualties? I rather doubt he'd have looked disappointed if Toudou merely chose to escape.
He seems to think that everyone will just follow his way of thinking, which is extremely naive.
Actually, the majority of the Japanese population shares Suzaku's views. The fact that they didn't support resistance groups, that they allowed themselves to be treated badly(hot dog seller), etc., etc. They're all willing to live with sub-par conditions in order to LIVE.
A thousand curses on my inability to italicize. I'm sorry about the double post(maybe the op could delete the earlier one?), but I think I think as it is, my original post is a little confusing to read:
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Not having seen the ep yet, I can't be certain, but:
"By using logical thinking and normal investigation skill? For example, doesn't he ever wonder why Mao knows about his past?"
It took even Lelouch some time to figure out Mao's power, and Lelouch has experience with Geass. Frankly, from a purely normal perspective, it's crazy to think that someone can actually read minds. Yes, Mao dug up some secrets, but I don't think that was Suzaku's primary concern at the time, and it's very easy to rationalize it later. "Maybe someone else knew, like Kirihara, and told Mao, and further speculation was the result of amateur psychoanalysis."
"One of the key in uncovering terorrist network has always to find the people behind it and their motivation. If his intention is to end terrorism as he always proclaim, then it's in his best interest to find out some information about them."
Isn't that placing an unreasonable amount of expectation on him? This single teenage boy will be able to uncover more than all the resources of the Brittanian army could? Besides, he has a pretty good idea of the Black Knight's motivation: to defeat Brittania. In the meantime, he's about the only one in the army who stands a decent chance of ruining the Black Knights' plans.
"Lastly, he needs to ditch his belief that everyone will side with him. Why does he look so disappointed with Toudou joining the resistance?"
Just a guess, but maybe because he sees someone he respects preparing to prolong fighting, creating more casualties? I rather doubt he'd have looked disappointed if Toudou merely chose to escape.
"He seems to think that everyone will just follow his way of thinking, which is extremely naive."
Actually, the majority of the Japanese population shares Suzaku's views. The fact that they didn't support resistance groups, that they allowed themselves to be treated badly(hot dog seller), etc., etc. They're all willing to live with sub-par conditions in order to LIVE.
Trapped on a desert island...meh. I just want to see that new Gawain Frame that Lelouch is going to get his hands on soon.
damn yuffie you stole suzaku from nanaly!!! D: lelouch was going to chain suzaku down by his side with nanaly... grrrrr yuffie needs to GO~~~~
sorry for the double post, just have something to say towards this line:
"Actually, the majority of the Japanese population shares Suzaku's views. The fact that they didn't support resistance groups, that they allowed themselves to be treated badly(hot dog seller), etc., etc. They're all willing to live with sub-par conditions in order to LIVE."
i wonder if they would still be willing to be treated badly if their most important people are suffering because of that. yes people might be willing to suffer if they think by suffering they can safe their family/friends from suffering, or dying. but what if things just keep getting worse and no one is doing anything? what if their families and people they love are suffering greatly and have died because of that? and the ruling party isnt doing anything good at all for your people? would you still be fighting for them?
sorry if im totally out of context >.> or uber unclear... i just kinda... wanted to say that -.-;
@saorren
I don't neccessarily hate Euphemia, but I agree that what she had done in this episode made Nanaly's situation worse and worse. Of course, no one's there to blame, she might reconsider if she knew the consequences of her actions, but this episode just shows the difference between Euphemia and Nanaly so clearly. Both of them are princesses - one being a successor, the other not, still nonethless part of the royal family. Yet Euphemia had so many people to support her, people that love her, adore her, but Nanaly? She had to endure her blindness and inability to walk, struggling to live with her only brother. Euphemia had so many choices as a Knight, yet she chose Suzaku, and, in the proccess of doing so, took away Nanaly's only possible protector. The gap between them is growing bigger and bigger, and I guess the knowledge of that would be the first shock that came to her, the difference between a princess and a 'dead' one. She's kinda oblivious to her own situation...
And no matter how much I think about it, I still couldn't understand why Suzaku would quit being Euphemia's Knight.___. Doesn't he realize that it's a chance for him? I'll just put aside the fact that he did absolutely nothing to support his 'change Britannia from inside' thing in the past, but being the Third Princess' Knight does give you a considerable amount of status, Eleven or not. Does he even WANT to change Britannia from the inside? Or is he satisfied by simply driving the White Helmet for Britannia and saying "Yes, my lord" over and over?
And I stare in awe at what a siscon could do. Lulu even rejected Diethard's suggestion of assassinating Suzaku and asked Suzaku to become his comrade. I guess this counts as his last struggle for his sister...*sigh*
Wow, there is a lot of Suzaku bashing going on here, maybe some logical arguments will help calm you all down a bit...
First, Garten, I think you are now going out of your way to hate the Suzaku character. "He has no idea how torned apart his friends were when they found out that Lancelot pilot was Suzaku" is a completely illogical statement b/c he doesn't know it's his friends who are fighting. Lelouch and Karen are doing a decent job of hiding their night jobs. Toudou's relationship w/ Suzaku is more interesting in that it's teacher-student and they're meeting again for the first time in this situation.
Now while most Elevens consider the Black Knights allies of justice, Suzaku has accidentally guessed correctly that Zero's true motive is something else and is surprised that Toudou has joined them. Even Zero has admitted that liberation is probably unlikely but that his more focused goal is possible. Toudou doesn't know what it is, but he now has something to fight for. Suzaku's statement about Toudou and him being enemies is more an abandoning of their former relation as teacher-student and now the reality that they will be fighting each other for real.
And while Suzaku isn't aware of any change w/ his relationship w/ Lelouch, the latter has definitely made that change. Lelouch's plans will now have to involve eliminating Suzaku in some way. And in the end this series is about these 2 butting heads against each other in just about every sense. Recall ep5 and how they want to break the cycle of hatred. Lelouch is going about it by making Britannians suffer like how the conquered have while Suzaku wants the Japanese to capitulate and prove that they're equals. It's insurgency vs. civil movement and both have historically proven effective when properly done (although the former is more fun to watch).
Now both their motivations are quite clear: Suzaku is trying to justify and atone for killing his father; Lelouch wants the entire Britannian royal family dead. Suzaku still can't handle the guilt; Lelouch could care less if he has to sacrifice every Japanese person. And Garten, "He also has no idea how Britannia press actually sees him" ignores Suzaku's daily experiences. Ep4 has him wrongly accused, ep5 has those 2 Britannian students he saved yelling at him, ep6 has his gym clothes spray-painted, and ep17 has that repeated; I think Suzaku knows what the Britannians think of him.
Suzaku is willing at this point to swallow his pride in hopes of changing the system within. Is there anything else one person can do? Well, there is picking up a gun and leading an army, but that's exactly what he wants to avoid. He was scarred by the large number of dead the original invasion caused and is using that to justify killing his father. He is fighting in the military to prevent a second war and more dead. Yeah, you have to crack a few eggs to make omelette's, but what if you crack all of the eggs? Too much omelette's, that's what (and Britannia will certainly wipe out all of Area 11 if the situation becomes untenable. Now Lelouch's approach to life is nothing ventured, nothing gained, and he's certainly smart enough to make the war interesting. We'll just have to see if his outcome is justifiable.
Finally, Garten, of course the racist Britannians are stupid, that's the whole point of the show! You should just sit back a little more and enjoy the ride (or trainwreck).
I concede that some of my points were written when I was really annoyed with Suzaku's speech to Toudou and they ended up not making much sense. I'll try to not do that again next time.
Having said that, I don't actually go out of my way to hate Suzaku. As I said before, I was pretty fine with him at the start of the story. Until, of course, he starts acting as if following Zero was the wrong thing for Toudou. What other option did Toudou have? He was going to be executed by the Britannian empire. The only way left is to join a party that has a strong chance to fend off Britannian empire.
Yeah, you have to crack a few eggs to make omelette's, but what if you crack all of the eggs? Too much omelette's, that's what
The same question can be asked to Suzaku. How much sacrifice does Elevens have to bear before things change? How much mindless murder of innocent civilians by the Britannian empire Suzaku would like to have on his hand before he can change things around? Would you want to live in a country where in order to find some terrorists, your government is able to kill innocent civilians? This is the kind of government that Suzaku supports in the hope of changing things from inside.
That racist Britannian part of the story underlined the ridiculous nature of Suzaku's quest. If someone like Euphemia barely has any power to change something as small as choosing the painting that she wants without being burdened by the pressure of politic, what chances does Suzaku has?
"How much mindless murder of innocent civilians by the Britannian empire Suzaku would like to have on his hand before he can change things around? Would you want to live in a country where in order to find some terrorists, your government is able to kill innocent civilians?"
Ah, that's the rub.
There was only mindless massacring of innocent civilians when there are terrorists.
No terrorists = no innocent casualties.
In the show, there've been two times when there was slaughter going on, and both times started because terrorist took some action first and then fled into areas populated by only the Japanese.
Remember: even the Japanese people used to tip of the Brittanians about terrorist activity. They'd do it to the Black Knights too, if they hadn't painted themselves as "Allies of Justice" and gotten Kyoto's backing.
>>>"He has no idea how torned apart his friends were when they found out that Lancelot pilot was Suzaku" is a completely illogical statement b/c he doesn't know it's his friends who are fighting.
- Wonder if Suzaku ever stop to think if Lulu would agree with the Black Knights' actions since he should know how much Lulu hates Britannia. Lulu has voiced his thought at least twice in front of him (both in Ep.1) To put it clearer : Suzaku doesn't care if Lulu will be sad to know he's fighting or might even die for Britannia. So I think Garten is partly correct here.
>>>Suzaku's statement about Toudou and him being enemies is more an abandoning of their former relation as teacher-student and now the reality that they will be fighting each other for real
- It seems to me Suzaku is ready to be anyone's enemy just so he can be in Britannian army. I wonder why.. (To change from the inside? But as an Eleven soldier?)
It will never change my thought that Suzaku has been and still acting like a naive bastard. I just think there must be some reason(s) behind his way of thinking (maybe his "unrequitted love"?). That's the best I can think of him yet I need to see if it's really reasonable enough to justify everything he's done.
>>>>That racist Britannian part of the story underlined the ridiculous nature of Suzaku's quest. If someone like Euphemia barely has any power to change something as small as choosing the painting that she wants without being burdened by the pressure of politic, what chances does Suzaku has?
- Just what I have always been thinking and thus why I never supported Suzaku. The clear evidence is in this episode.
Ahh.. really wanna know the real reason behind Lulu's maniac laugh at the end. Does he just lose it or he see it as a big advantage over his friend who doesn't know who Zero is? According to gg's sub in Picture Drama 1, Lulu said Suzaku will be his worst enemy. My thought that Suzaku will be the final boss has become quite solid now after watching this Ep.
I am actually looking forward for an episode where LuLouch uses geass to have Suzaku assassinate Cornelia, and perhaps Euphemia also. It would be great.
>>>>Remember: even the Japanese people used to tip of the Brittanians about terrorist activity. They'd do it to the Black Knights too, if they hadn't painted themselves as "Allies of Justice" and gotten Kyoto's backing
- It's because Japanese people are afraid of Britannia's punishment, perhaps? (KILL, KILL, KILL..) Not that they agree to sell the terrorists out.
Is it really so difficult to see that Suzaku's primary goal is to SAVE lives, THEN improve quality of life?
You might say that Suzaku is being naive by hoping to change the system from within peaceably, but the other way of looking at it is that he is extremely practical in seeing that the quickest way to keep as many people ALIVE as possible is to END the fighting by wiping out the smaller, weaker group.
Blue, I think it's because some people recognise that changing things from inside won't be quick at all. In fact, even if you change things from inside, you still have to spend a lot on education and laws so that the attitude of Britannians will change. And even then, it would take years for Britannian citizens to change their attitude towards Eleven. There's not much Suzaku can do to change their mindset (as proven by Nina, the xenophobe).
I also disagree with the no terrorist = no innocent casualties theory. To begin with, Britannia attacked Eleven first. They are clearly the first aggressor. Once such event is set in motion, do you honestly think that someone in the country won't feel any kind of resentment for it? There would always be one group who are not happy with the situation. If we may take real life example, there is a reason why so many countries now regain their independence from their former coloniser. Because no sovereign country likes to be colonised.
Back into this show, Britannia opened a can of worm when it decided to invade a sovereign country called Japan and renamed it as Eleven. Did they think that people would just give up and bow down to them? I would say, there is a small likelihood they would if the ruler proves itself to be a great ruler who understands the need of the country. Even then it would take years to appease the wounded pride of a nation whose country has just got taken over by another country. However, it would never happen if this ruler trample on their rights and treat them like a second class citizen like Britannia.
We know that Britannia is anything but a good ruler so expecting no volatility is out of the question. And I think Britannians are a bunch of boneheads if they didn't expect volatility in the first place. Having said that, what kind of good ruler would sacrifice its own citizens in order to capture some terrorists? They have no excuse for killing innocent people (some of them are even the elderly types) who happen to reside in the area where the terrorists are hiding. And to bring back our original argument, this is the kind of ruler that Suzaku serves. Yes, his intention is noble and he tries to save life but it's also not the best way.
I am actually looking forward for an episode where LuLouch uses geass to have Suzaku assassinate Cornelia, and perhaps Euphemia also. It would be great.
Heh. Suzaku could be a good trojan horse to assasinate Cornelia especially if he turns out to be a genetically enginereed super soldier like some people have theorised. Although I wonder why Lelouch didn't just use Euphemia when he met her in that hotel since she's closer to Cornelia. He has to make sure that it happens when Cornelia is not surrounded by many guards (like that time when she was relaxing in a park).
"- It's because Japanese people are afraid of Britannia's punishment, perhaps? (KILL, KILL, KILL..) Not that they agree to sell the terrorists out."
EXACTLY. They don't want to die, so they sell out the people that are causing trouble
The ONLY difference between what they do and what Suzaku does is that Suzaku takes action directly, whereas the average Japanese person leaves it up to the army.
If we compare the actions of Lulouch to past history, then we can make an analogy of the Black Knights' rebellion to the rebellion of the 13 colonies in the americal revolutionary war. I don't think Zero is actually willing to sacrifice that many people for his objectives. Sure he may have seemed to been brutal in killing General Katase, but it seems to be more like sacrificing a few pawns to take down the opponent's queen. And also Lulouch isnt the kind of person to suffer fools, what Katase did by waiting at the docks was a complete and utter tactical error. There was no way to save him, so Lulouch did what any good commander would do, he went for the second best option: Taking out cornelia and weakening her forces. And we all know that the American Revolution succeeded in the end.
Now Suzaku, he is clearly naive. Killing his own father in the hopes of stopping the war? Result: The total defeat of the japanese forces. Trying to change a system which has existed for 10 times longer then his age from inside? He'd have better luck trying to teach an old dog new tricks. The only way to change the mindset of brittanians, which has been perpetuated, would take more then just 1 person. He would need people in some sort of power positions or a large number of the population who wanted change. And he would also need to become a martyr (like Ghandi). But sadly for him, not many people share his views, and on top of that powerful people who do in a way tollerate him (e.g. Cornelia) use him as a puppet, so even if he sacrificed his life, there is hardly any chance of him becomming a martyr.
As for my view on the Japanese (Elevens) who report on terrorist activities to the Brits, I think this quote should sum it up nicely:
"There aren't many people who are brave enough to place their life on the line to defend their honor and dignity as a human being. Just surviving, like an animal, you don't need honor and dignity."
I took this quote from Maigo-Chan's translations of Rurouni Kenshin (http://www.maigo-chan.org/rk9_67.htm). All credits to him.
Oh and 1 question about Suzaku: Does anyone else feel that his physical abilities are somehow being artificially boosted by the Brittanians, seeming as how he is the only one to pilot the Lancelot and his stunts in the previous episode?
I'm sort of wondering back to the first three episodes when he was shot by his own commanding officer, when they recovered his injured body, there may have been a slight possibility that he was 'altered' somehow by the same people responsible for putting CC in that spherical container.
Garten:
"Blue, I think it's because some people recognise that changing things from inside won't be quick at all. ...it would take years for Britannian citizens to change their attitude towards Eleven. There's not much Suzaku can do to change their mindset (as proven by Nina, the xenophobe)."
Again, I think you're assuming Suzaku joined the army to change the system from within.
He joined the army to END the fighting and keep people alive. Changing public opinion is a distant second compared to that. And though you say that there is little he can do, look at the rest of the student council aside from Nina. They treat him like a normal person. And all it took was a kind gesture from Lelouch to start it off.
Again, HIGHLY unlikely that he could fix the Brittanian government from within, in his lifetime. But then, neither will Lelouch's way. Lelouch is out to destroy government, so his method isn't exactly going to lead to "oh, Japanese people are wonderful too."
But to take a page from the American history books, who do we look upon with more favor? Martin Luther King Jr? Or the militant Black Panthers? Sure, Suzaku's no MLK, but who is credited with the progress of civil rights? Those who tried to do it peaceably, or those who took up guns? (And lest we forget, Zero isn't fighting to help the Japanese people)
"I also disagree with the no terrorist = no innocent casualties theory. To begin with, Britannia attacked Eleven first. They are clearly the first agressor. Once such event is set in motion, do you honestly think that someone in the country won't feel any kind of resentment for it? "
Of course there's resentment. But the people as a whole are willing to accept the bitterness instead of risking their lives.
But that still doesn't disprove "no terrorists = no innocent casualties" I suppose if you're trying to make the point that there will ALWAYS be terrorists. But to point to a Code Geass example: when the Black Knights fought them at the JDF's base, did you see Brittania's army kill innocent civillians?
No.
Because there were no innocent civilians at the scene.
As horrible and extreme as the Brittanian army is, they don't kill innocent Japanese people for giggles. They do it when they're hunting for terrorists and can't tell who is and who isn't a terrorist.
"If we may take real life example, there is a reason why so many countries now regain their independence from their former coloniser."
To be accurate, the reason why so many countries managed to regain independance is because of two reasons
1) The military power of their oppressors has declined
2)Most importantly, there was a LARGER power willing to back up their bid for freedom, in the real world case, America.
However, neither condition is true in the Geass world. Brittania is both the LARGEST power, and the one with the BEST technology.
"Back into this show, Britannia opened a can of worm when it decided to invade a sovereign country called Japan and renamed it as Eleven. Did they think that people would just give up and bow down to them?"
But after the declaration of surrender, the vast number of people DID bow down to them. You don't hear/see the 100 million+ people rising against their oppressors. You only see groups of hundreds, maybe thousands.
That's less than one percent, causing trouble for the remaining 99.99% of Japanese people.
"But we know that Britannia is anything but a good ruler so expecting no volatility is out of the question. And I think Britannians are a bunch of boneheads if they didn't expect volatility in the first place. "
But they DO expect volatility. That's why their army is there, ready to crush those that cause trouble.
"Having said that, what kind of good ruler would sacrifice its own citizens in order to capture some terrorists?"
Well, to be precise, they're not killing Brittanians.
"They have no excuse for killing innocent people (some of them are even the elderly types) who happen to reside in the area where the terrorists are hiding."
To point to a real world example, Iraq, look at how much the American army is hated, and how many casualties they suffer while they're trying to sort out civilians from terrorists (and often failing).
If you're going to be hated either way, you might as well take the course of action that is safer for you.
I agree that it's awful and inhumane to kill innocent civilians. But there are two very strategic reasons why anyone would.
1) If you kill them all, none of them can be terrorists now or later
2) Put the fear of retaliation into other people, so that they don't choose to become terrorists later.
Again, I think you're assuming Suzaku joined the army to change the system from within.
Nope. I'm not assuming anything. Suzaku himself was saying in episode 09 that in order to make a difference, they must change things from within.
And though you say that there is little he can do, look at the rest of the student council aside from Nina. They treat him like a normal person. And all it took was a kind gesture from Lelouch to start it off.
Have you forgotten the "Go back to your Ghetto" message on his gym t-shirt? The student council (bar Nina) are the exception to the case. The majority of students in Ashford are quite racist.
But then, neither will Lelouch's way. Lelouch is out to destroy government, so his method isn't exactly going to lead to "oh, Japanese people are wonderful too."
Well, it's their country. Britannians are the ones who had no right to be there in the first place.
But to take a page from the American history books, who do we look upon with more favor? Martin Luther King Jr? Or the militant Black Panthers?
I think you're taking it to the extreme. Suzaku has little to no cloud of influence in comparison to those figures you just mentioned. Plus, those figure has the backup of their people. I highly doubt Suzaku will get the backup of Japanese people, especially those who think that he's a traitor.
Of course there's resentment. But the people as a whole are willing to accept the bitterness instead of risking their lives.
Don't be so sure. At this point in time, there's not much left for the Elevens. One of the reason we get more and more desperate terrorists are because they have nothing more to lose except their life.
But that still doesn't disprove "no terrorists = no innocent casualties" I suppose if you're trying to make the point that there will ALWAYS be terrorists. But to point to a Code Geass example: when the Black Knights fought them at the JDF's base, did you see Brittania's army kill innocent civillians?
When Lelouch and C.C were caught by the Britannian army, they are ready to shoot even though Lelouch clearly wears a Britannian school uniform. That shows these armies are willing to kill anyone who get in their way.
Because there were no innocent civilians at the scene. As horrible and extreme as the Brittanian army is, they don't kill innocent Japanese people for giggles. They do it when they're hunting for terrorists and can't tell who is and who isn't a terrorist.
Have you forgotten that in episode 07, Cornelia ordered the assasination of the Saitama ghetto so that it'd mirror the Shinjuku incident? And the purpose was so Zero will take the bait. Zero, who wasn't even there in the first place! They clearly didn't kill those civilians because they can't tell which ones are terrorists and which ones are not. They killed those people to make sure that Zero comes to the ghetto.
That's less than one percent, causing trouble for the remaining 99.99% of Japanese people.
They are already in trouble even without the terrorist. They got humiliated by Britannians, treated as second class citizens who mostly live in ghetto, and are easy target for termination whenever Britannians feel like itt. Even those with 1/4 Eleven blood can't even win a small prize from the Princess of Britannia.
Well, to be precise, they're not killing Brittanians.
Again, they were ready to kill Lelouch, who clearly wore Ashford uniform. They were ready to kill Suzaku, who were working with them.
To point to a real world example, Iraq, look at how much the American army is hated, and how many casualties they suffer while they're trying to sort out civilians from terrorists (and often failing).
If you're going to be hated either way, you might as well take the course of action that is safer for you.
Okay, I think this is where our ideology differs. You think that by decimating civilians the problem will be solved. You forget that there are generations of Iraqi children who will hear the story that their father/grandfather died because of Americans. All you get from indiscriminate killing of civilians is further hatred from the future generations of that country. Would you kill the children as well to prevent that?
"Nope. I'm not assuming anything. Suzaku himself was saying in episode 09 that in order to make a difference, they must change things from within."
What he says and what he does are two different things. He talks about how things need to be changed from within, but observe:
Back when Japan was losing the war(and so Japanese people still had their own status within Japanese society), Suzaku killed his father to prevent him from leading the country into what he saw was a kamikaze nosedive.
Suzaku may have TALKED about how change needs to be effected from within, but his ACTIONS show that in his eyes, the saving of as many lives as possible is what is most important. The change can come later, even if it takes hundreds of years.
"Have you forgotten the "Go back to your Ghetto" message on his gym t-shirt? The student council (bar Nina) are the exception to the case. The majority of students in Ashford are quite racist."
If memory serves, that message showed up BEFORE Suzaku entered the student council. And even the student council was wary about Suzaku, until they spent time with him and got to know him. (with the continued exception of Nina)
"Well, it's their country. Britannians are the ones who had no right to be there in the first place."
So does this mean if Native Americans were to start a bloody revolution, you'd support them? Though they be heavily outgunned, they have right on their side, so let's all give them a helping hand, even though it's futile, and will cause them to suffer heavy casualties, depleting their population?
"I highly doubt Suzaku will get the backup of Japanese people, especially those who think that he's a traitor."
He already HAS their tacit support though. Because most of them DON'T support terrorists, or take up arms to rebel, they're doing the same as he is.
"Don't be so sure. At this point in time, there's not much left for the Elevens. One of the reason we get more and more desperate terrorists are because they have nothing more to lose except their life."
Really? Where is this surge of more desperate terrorists? They and the JDF were on the verge of being stamped out before Zero stepped in.
"When Lelouch and C.C were caught by the Britannian army, they are ready to shoot even though Lelouch clearly wears a Britannian school uniform. That shows these armies are willing to kill anyone who get in their way."
Yes, but in that particular case, that was a special ops team(I believe Clovis mentioned as much), that was sent to recover a military secret. It's not that he was in the way(though I believe they also said Lelouch was a terrorist because he was there), it's because he saw something that he shouldn't have.
"Have you forgotten that in episode 07, Cornelia ordered the assasination of the Saitama ghetto so that it'd mirror the Shinjuku incident? And the purpose was so Zero will take the bait. "
Zero wasn't there, but there WERE terrorists. Cornelia took the step further to bait out Zero, but the initial impetus for the hunt was terrorists.
"They are already in trouble even without the terrorist. They got humiliated by Britannians, treated as second class citizens who mostly live in ghetto, and are easy target for termination whenever Britannians feel like it"
It comes down to whether they are willing to live with humiliation, or die for their ideals. As the show indicates, most already chose to live with the humiliation.
"Again, they were ready to kill Lelouch, who clearly wore Ashford uniform. They were ready to kill Suzaku, who were working with them."
Again, top military secret.
"Okay, I think this is where our ideology differs. You think that by decimating civilians the problem will be solved. "
It's not an ideology. It's a strategy. It's inhumane and barbaric, but it works. There's a Chinese saying about when you kill your enemy, you kill them to 5 degrees out.
Essentially, it means that if you have an enemy, you kill them, you kill their direct family, you kill their cousins, you kill their cousins' cousins, and you kill their cousin's cousin's cousin's.
It's awful, but it's a sad truth that it works. You make people so terrified of retaliation that they DON'T DARE step out of line. They may hate you forever, but the consequences of trying to rebel are so horrible that their love for their family keeps them from doing it.
The only times this fails, I kid you not, is when the person in power becomes soft and stupid. (Which tends to happen after the second generation or so)
To address Novan's comments:
"And we all know that the American Revolution succeeded in the end."
Lest we forget, there are two very large differences.
1) Back then, travel, i.e., reinforcements from England, was GREATLY hampered by the ocean in between. (And they STILL managed to capture the capital. Which America then moved so we could claim "No you didn't.")
2) We had help from another major world power, France. Without their support, it's very likely we would have lost. (They gave us weapons and soldiers)
"Now Suzaku, he is clearly naive. Killing his own father in the hopes of stopping the war? Result: The total defeat of the japanese forces."
I think you're confusing "stopping the war" with "winning the war." The war was very clearly stopped.
"The only way to change the mindset of brittanians, which has been perpetuated, would take more then just 1 person. "
In the words of every liberal minded hippie, "someone has to start it."
"There aren't many people who are brave enough to place their life on the line to defend their honor and dignity as a human being. Just surviving, like an animal, you don't need honor and dignity."
This quote also applies to the state of the U.S. right now. We've been trampling on civil rights in the name of national security(and largely failing anyway) Or Muslim women, who are treated as property.
It's easy to degrade the biological imperative to want to live, but in the end, all that means is that they are NORMAL. People who are willing to put their lives on the line are the exception, not the rule.
"Oh and 1 question about Suzaku: Does anyone else feel that his physical abilities are somehow being artificially boosted by the Brittanians, seeming as how he is the only one to pilot the Lancelot and his stunts in the previous episode?"
Doubt it. Among other things, it would require a lot of time for genetic manipulation to set in, for the person to adjust, etc. Suzaku has shown no such signs of being surprised at what he can accomplish, so it's very likely he could always do that.
Also, Lloyd said as much that Suzaku was special. If they could have done the treatment to anyone, it probably would have been done to a Britannian.
Hmm... well, that was a great episode. Lancelot ending a fight with 6 top-grade KFs at a draw...expected, but still cool to see.
Anyway, I don't understand the Suzaku hate. Britaiania might be corrupt, but an eye for and eye has never been the moral choice. The kid killed his father and stopped countless people from a possible slaughterhouse, and feels terrible about that; however, it made him decide no one should fight and go through what he did. He sees good people in Britainia (Nunnaly the most obvious case) and thinks fighting them will lead to worst outcome; everyone suffering loss. Which would be true, because if Zero want's to destroy Britainia, he's gonna have to kill alot of people.
Lol, I am one to talk though, cause I can't stand Lelouch's position. He has his good points, but only as far as someone like Cornelia. I'll take honorable fighting for guilt over ruthless fighting for revenge anyday.
What he says and what he does are two different things.
That makes him a hypocrite then, another strike against his character.
Back when Japan was losing the war(and so Japanese people still had their own status within Japanese society), Suzaku killed his father to prevent him from leading the country into what he saw was a kamikaze nosedive.
How did he know it'll be a kamikaze attack? I mean seriously, he was what? 10 years old back then? What does a 10 years old know about politics? About strategic battle? Suzaku was simply afraid that there'll be more casualties so he murdered his father. I think you're giving him too much credit for being able to strategise at that age.
Suzaku may have TALKED about how change needs to be effected from within, but his ACTIONS show that in his eyes, the saving of as many lives as possible is what is most important. The change can come later, even if it takes hundreds of years.
And who would continue his 'holy mission' if he's dead in the war? I'd say no one because no one is interested to change things from inside. And what makes him sure that change will come later if he doesn't make it happen with his own hand.
If memory serves, that message showed up BEFORE Suzaku entered the student council. And even the student council was wary about Suzaku, until they spent time with him and got to know him. (with the continued exception of Nina)
It was before but even after he saved the cat and Lelouch, only the student council opened up to him. The other (including Nina) still dislike him.
So does this mean if Native Americans were to start a bloody revolution, you'd support them? Though they be heavily outgunned, they have right on their side, so let's all give them a helping hand, even though it's futile, and will cause them to suffer heavy casualties, depleting their population?
You're talking about a small number of people versus the whole population of Japan, a country. The battle with Britannia is clearly not futile either since there have been time when Zero had been able to outwit Britannian powerhouse using members of Ougi's factions (prior to them becoming Black Order and attract many people). If they can managed to achieve something like that with a few people, imagine if the entire country fight with them.
He already HAS their tacit support though. Because most of them DON'T support terrorists, or take up arms to rebel, they're doing the same as he is.
No, that's not support. That's fear. Support is where you offer a helping hand or your direct involvement in the matter. Is anyone offering to help Suzaku? The answer is no. They are simply choose not to do anything due to fear. Because they think no one will stand up for them.
Really? Where is this surge of more desperate terrorists? They and the JDF were on the verge of being stamped out before Zero stepped in.
Even if Zero is not around but the condition for Elevens continue to get worse, sooner or later these people will rebel against Britannia. The facxt that Zero suddenly get massive amount of people willing to help him is a proof that there are many people who are unhappy with the Britannian government. They are just bidding their time until someone with enough vision and power comes out and declare the war on Britannia.
Yes, but in that particular case, that was a special ops team(I believe Clovis mentioned as much), that was sent to recover a military secret. It's not that he was in the way(though I believe they also said Lelouch was a terrorist because he was there), it's because he saw something that he shouldn't have.
Like I said, they can kill anyone that they want to kill. All they need is an official excuse and they can kill an innocent civilian if they want to.
Zero wasn't there, but there WERE terrorists. Cornelia took the step further to bait out Zero, but the initial impetus for the hunt was terrorists.
Yeah, but Cornelia's main motivation to kill was to bait Zero. Not to hunt the terrorist. The order was clearly for termination of everyone living in Saitama ghetto. Never mind those people are old people who are trying to evacuate themselves to safety.
It comes down to whether they are willing to live with humiliation, or die for their ideals. As the show indicates, most already chose to live with the humiliation.
Clearly more and more people don't want to do that anymore since as you said before, less and less people report Black Knights activity to the police.
It's not an ideology. It's a strategy. It's inhumane and barbaric, but it works. There's a Chinese saying about when you kill your enemy, you kill them to 5 degrees out.
SInce Britannia is the country that employs such measures, that proves even more that there's no good reason for Suzaku to support Britannia. By the time he's finished, Britannia has likely killed half of Japan on the pretense that they just want to 'stamp out the terrorist'.
Anyway, I think this is has gone on long enough and I've said everything that I need to say. I don't think I can convince you otherwise. However, I encourage those who are interested in the issue to continue the discussion.
"And who would continue his 'holy mission' if he's dead in the war? I'd say no one because no one is interested to change things from inside. And what makes him sure that change will come later if he doesn't make it happen with his own hand."
Well, Euphemia has expressed similar concerns as Suzaku. And she is the ruler of Japan after Cornelia leaves, whom said she would once Zero is apprehended. I highly doubt Euphemia would perpetuate the totalitarianism Clovis and Cornelia had going on. And Suzaku is a prime example, as the son of the minister, to show the Japanese what to do.
>>>>EXACTLY. They don't want to die, so they sell out the people that are causing trouble
- I think it's necessary to talk about how those people agree or disagree with the terrorists who now have Zero as their leader. What do you think Kyoto group does to the same group of people who sold out their own kind then? Providing higher security or money? Threatening them a worse punishment than Britannia's? (Don't take it seriously..) I don't think so. It should be that the Kyoto group assures them higher chance at gaining the victory thus those people think it's worth to follow the Kyoto's advice for once. So if you're comparing these people's action with Suzaku's, I'll have to say they are different. Suzaku doesn't agree to anything that may cause people killed while Japanese people know the rebellion is doing the correct thing for them. And if they see some certain possibility, they grab it. (This could just entirely be my assumption, but I rather believe so.)
For Suzaku, he doesn't even consider any potential and continue to believe what he wants to believe. Protecting fellow people is a good thing but does he have the right to judge the rebellion when he himself has done nothing to change what are bad? It's like I said, "I will stop the world's conflict and have mankind loves one another" Wouldn't you think I'm in a fantasy world and think I'm bullshit-ing? The same applies for Suzaku. Well, what has he acheived so far comparing to Lelouch? And any future substantial plan? No. Euphie says, "Be my knight", meaning some considerable power at hands as well as being recognised if he does it good but he is going to say no too. So practically he's standing still. If you are so afraid of crushing ants on the ground, then don't walk. But it's not going to get you anywhere either.
>>>>So does this mean if Native Americans were to start a bloody revolution, you'd support them? Though they be heavily outgunned, they have right on their side, so let's all give them a helping hand, even though it's futile, and will cause them to suffer heavy casualties, depleting their population?
- Me on 3 conditions, yes.
1. I am a Native American who has been looked down upon and poorly treated
2. I have a super smart leader as well as a powerful backup = high chance of success
3. The colonization just happened in my life time, was there to face it and suffer because of it.
You seem to forget the Japanese has these 3 conditions in Code Geass world. Sorry but it cannot be compared to Native Americans revolution now.
Hey, how do you italicize stuff?
"That makes him a hypocrite then, another strike against his character."
Not exactly. He IS hoping to change the system, it's just that it's not his top priority.
"How did he know it'll be a kamikaze attack? I mean seriously, he was what? 10 years old back then? What does a 10 years old know about politics? About strategic battle? Suzaku was simply afraid that there'll be more casualties so he murdered his father. I think you're giving him too much credit for being able to strategise at that age."
How old was Lelouch when he confronted his father about letting his mother die, and suspecting it was due to his siblings? 5? I think you're underestimating how quickly children can pick things up. Furthermore, it's not like his father was Dopey McFarmsALot. He was the Prime Minister, hearing everyday about how the Japanese were dying, losing ground, and just plain losing.
It doesn't take a lot of brains to be able to guess that if you're being invaded from all directions (remember that map back in the beginning showing forces coming from the direction of China, and the US?), you're pretty much screwed.
"It was before but even after he saved the cat and Lelouch, only the student council opened up to him. The other (including Nina) still dislike him."
Do we see active proof of this? What we DO know is that the people he spends time with like him. (With the exception of Nina, though she does seem to have gotten past her blind fear of him specifically)
"You're talking about a small number of people versus the whole population of Japan, a country. "
Except the whole population of Japan ISN'T up in arms. Just that less than 0.01% that are terrorists.
"The battle with Britannia is clearly not futile either since there have been time when Zero had been able to outwit Britannian powerhouse using members of Ougi's factions "
As I recall, this was with Clovis as the tactician, and a very small fraction of the powerhouse. Just because you can beat up one guy doesn't mean you can beat up him and his 20 burly brothers.
"If they can managed to achieve something like that with a few people, imagine if the entire country fight with them."
I know exactly what will happen, because it already did. Japan lost. Or at least was losing horribly until Suzaku forced a surrender. (Remember that Toudou was the only one whot ever managed to beat Brittania, and they called it a miracle. Miracles aren't called that because they happen on a daily basis.)
Unless the entire country gains a sizable force of Knightmares, it's still futile. Everything we've seen up to now in Japan is like one or two battalions. You better believe Brittania had a LOT more when they were invading Japan back then.
"No, that's not support. That's fear. Support is where you offer a helping hand or your direct involvement in the matter. Is anyone offering to help Suzaku? The answer is no. They are simply choose not to do anything due to fear. Because they think no one will stand up for them."
In doing nothing, they were prioritizing LIFE over PRIDE. In turning in the terrorists, people who were standing up for Japanese rights, they were supporting Suzaku.
So actually, they WERE offering a helping hand.
"Like I said, they can kill anyone that they want to kill. All they need is an official excuse and they can kill an innocent civilian if they want to."
Yes they can, but they don't do it for absolutely no reason at all.
"Yeah, but Cornelia's main motivation to kill was to bait Zero. Not to hunt the terrorist. The order was clearly for termination of everyone living in Saitama ghetto. Never mind those people are old people who are trying to evacuate themselves to safety."
If the terrorists didn't have to resort to hiding in Japanese ghettos, then there wouldn't have even been a situation where Cornelia would have ordered the massacre.
"Clearly more and more people don't want to do that anymore since as you said before, less and less people report Black Knights activity to the police."
Perhaps, but it's more likely because Zero claimed that the Black Knights were "allies of justice," and not "Overthrowers of Brittania." Lelouch said it himself, "the common people don't like terrorists," even when the terrorists are pro-Japanese. Zero broadcasted to the entire public that they have nothing against Brittania, just the people who abuse power and terrorize the innocents.
"SInce Britannia is the country that employs such measures, that proves even more that there's no good reason for Suzaku to support Britannia. By the time he's finished, Britannia has likely killed half of Japan on the pretense that they just want to 'stamp out the terrorist'."
Actually, there's a very good reason.
If Suzaku is there on the ground, and he sees innocent civilians, he can tell them to run instead of gun them down. Meanwhile, he can kill the terrorists that are causing innocents to get killed.
The longer it takes to wipe out the terrorists, the more innocents will get involved. Suzaku merely joined the side that can end this quicker.
"I don't think I can convince you otherwise."
Likewise. However, can we agree that Suzaku believes in LIFE first, PRIDE a distant second? Whether or not you agree with his methods, it's really the only way to understand his actions.
"What do you think Kyoto group does to the same group of people who sold out their own kind then? Providing higher security or money? Threatening them a worse punishment than Britannia's?"
Wouldn't be surprising, actually. The Kyoto group was prepared to kill the Black Knights in order to protect Kirihara's identity.
"2. I have a super smart leader as well as a powerful backup = high chance of success"
Kyoto's not a powerful backup. Within Japan, it is. In the broader scale of the world, it is not. And that's where Zero is leading up to.
"3. The colonization just happened in my life time, was there to face it and suffer because of it."
Yeah, and the Native Americans did such a great job of fighting off Americans during those years.
1) If we were to compare the results that Lelouch and Suzaku received up to this point so far, it's very much clear that Lelouch is gaining more support, not only for the right of the elevens(Japanese) but quite possibly for other conquered areas too. He is also gaining support (just like the American colonies with France during the 1700s), though it's still in the early stages, his revolution has more chance of success then what Suzaku could accomplish if he lived for 500 years.
2) The way Brittanians treat the other areas will be extremely difficult to change, as in episode 13 when Suzaku had to help in the operation for the capture of General Katase, the 'Fumie' test was given to him, and what was it that Cornelia's General Dalton called Suzaku, oh yes he called Suzaku 'Bastard' several times though by now Suzaku should've received several honors for helping Cornelia in the previous episodes.
3) Suzaku doesn't enjoy killing, but we have seen where he will kill, even killing people who are already surrendering (episode 13 with the JLF soldiers aboard the container ship). And in episode 7, just before he entered the underground tunnel, what he told Cecile about if being part of an organization then one must follow the ideals of the organization, what if those ideals were the opposite of your personal belief? Sounds like hypocricy to me.
"Suzaku doesn't enjoy killing, but we have seen where he will kill, even killing people who are already surrendering (episode 13 with the JLF soldiers aboard the container ship). And in episode 7, just before he entered the underground tunnel, what he told Cecile about if being part of an organization then one must follow the ideals of the organization, what if those ideals were the opposite of your personal belief? Sounds like hypocricy to me."
Wrong. He sees the retreat, does NOT fire once , and says "This is no longer a fight." He only acts when Zero shows up. (Oh, btw, retreat and surrender together is a complete insult to an opposing army, and that is what the JLF was doing.)
Briainia is mostly evil. Suzaku is not. Suzaku works to change that evil in arguably the only way he can. Suzaku says he must change it. He has been steadily gaining influence; it is working, no matter how improbable it may seem to some.
Wow, a very interesting debate we have on this particular entry. Now for me to lend my ten cents:
Briainia is mostly evil. Suzaku is not. Suzaku works to change that evil in arguably the only way he can. Suzaku says he must change it. He has been steadily gaining influence; it is working, no matter how improbable it may seem to some.
I agree with you that Suzaku isn't evil; he certainly has very good intentions. However, he's rather blinded to see the big picture.
The only person he has on his side is Euphemia. Cornelia might get closer to him through Euphie, but not even she will change her views so easily. Lloyd only thinks of him as a part for the Lancelot and, while Cecile cares for him, it's not official whether or not she thinks Suzaku's views are wise. At school, the only people who trust him are the student council (minus Nina). If you're talking influence over the Britannians, then he has very little.
If you're talking about influence on the Japanese, majority of that is going to be negative, especially after this episode. They will view him as a traitor; supporters of the OoBK will especially hate him because he, their own kind, keeps trying to kill their only hope of fighting back against Britannia.
The only way I can see that positively working is that, seeing that the Britannians 'trust' a former Eleven to work so high up, they will believe that the Britannians can give them a chance as well and begin to try and get in their favor. However, that is not changing the system from within, as Suzaku wishes. It's changing everything else to accept the flawed system that they currently have. Britannia's views will not change at the rate it's going now. If people like The Emperor or Scheiznel keep the throne, definitely not. Even if a kind ruler such as Euphie takes the throne (which is also very unlikely in current circumstances; if the competition to the throne is as fierce as Lelouch describes it, then she'd be eliminated quickly before or immediately after she'd receive the throne) the Britannians won't change their views on the Elevens so quickly. In time, they might, but they won't stop trying to topple other countries like Japan.
That brings another point. Even if Japan is won over by Britannia, what will stop the other countries from rebelling? They have 'areas' all over the world. There are just as much civilian casualties. There are just as much people rebelling, as shown in the beginning of Episode Five. If Japan supports Britannia, it doesn't mean that other countries will follow suit.
Basically, Lelouch and Suzaku are out to destroy the current system of Britannia. Lelouch is targeting straight to the core of the system--the Emperor and his heirs, who were bred to keep the system in tact-- and Suzaku is looking to change those very same people in order to change the rest of Britannia's people. Unfortunately, people aren't so easy to change.
Just a quick opinion before running off to lunch. I'll be back for more later.
And even still there are a lot of Japanese, who turned Honorary Brits, using the drug refrain trying pathetically to hold on to some illusion because deep inside their soul they regret becomming honorary brits.
Oh well I am not supporting either one, but I do strongly feel that what Lelouch is doing is a more realistic approach and he is achieving more results then Suzaku. And I have a strong feeling that Lelouch is better aware of the situation then Suzaku will ever be, after all he is the brilliant tactician and chess master while Suzaku is just a footsoldier.
If Lelouch succeeds, not only will he be able to create a world when he and his sister can live in peace, but also where Karen (Kallen) and her mother can be together without any form of discrimination. And also for Ougi and Vallita (yeah I am supporting their pairing, hope it ends well.)
Lelouch's rebellion is like the early stages of the American Revolution, where they started out by winning small battles and ended with winning the entire war.
I'm sure either the Chinese Federation or the EUU or some other outside ally will be to Lelouch's revolution as the French were to the American colonial forces.
As for Suzaku, his prediciment reminds me of this old movie I once saw. Like him, the protanganist in that movie tried to change the system using 'peaceful' means, but in the end it seemed that the system new all along what he was up to and was actually giving him the illusion that he was succeeding. Hmm sounds like 1984 or Fahrenheit 451.
"Oh well I am not supporting either one, but I do strongly feel that what Lelouch is doing is a more realistic approach and he is achieving more results then Suzaku. And I have a strong feeling that Lelouch is better aware of the situation then Suzaku will ever be, after all he is the brilliant tactician and chess master while Suzaku is just a footsoldier."
Well, Lelouch has the same views now that Suzaku had when he was 10. Take that however you want it.
Anyway, the only thing it seems we are still debating about is whether Suzaku's course of action has any chance of bearing fruit. Judging from history, many of you would say no, but this is anime, after all, and by Sunrise at that. Kira Yamato's course of having two ships against the two world powers and refusing to kill anyone isn't very realistic either, but he got his point across.
I don't know the final outcome of Code Geass, but it might just follow the Athurian Legends, but if so,
Err...if CG ends like the Athurian Legends, I'd feel quite cheated. Gawain and Lancelot both happen to be important Knights of the Round Table, but in CG, the only main character is Lelouch. Suzaku is also a side character, albeit an important one, so I don't really think it will follow the Athurian Legends THIS closely...
@Novan
Suzaku's abnormal physical abilities do have a reason behind them, whether DNA alternation or not, I don't know. But there are three primary reasons of why Suzaku's the pilot of Lancelot -
1. He got excellent results in the simulator.
2. The Knights who were pure Britannians have a considerable amound of status and power - thus, they do not want to risk driving an experimental Frame. The fact that Lancelot doesn't have any escape functions only makes it worse.
3. Other troops wouldn't want to give their brilliant pilots to the Special Department.
Thus, Suzaku's status as an Eleven actually helped him get the place.
I do like Suzaku, but the way his brain works and where he stands confuses me a great lot, thus I find it very hard to support him. Lulu - on the other hand, has a clear goal and reasoning behind them, you just know where you're standing if you support him.
Suzaku is really blinded by his believing in his rightness. He said that he wonna change system, but he choose easy way. He become soldier, so when he ki